tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post8581729015736246558..comments2023-11-05T08:01:10.010+00:00Comments on Think of England: A 21st Century NightmareBrithttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-58066777420687870032010-09-30T20:34:58.226+01:002010-09-30T20:34:58.226+01:00But my conclusion is 'it only takes one'.
...<i>But my conclusion is 'it only takes one'.</i><br /><br />I must have been unintentionally obscure.<br /><br />You have convinced me your position is the most morally correct one -- that is, the damage done by a single erroneous execution outweighs any positive benefits to society CP might have. Confronting the reality of such a case focuses the mind.<br /><br />I still have no idea Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-33315006134684594892010-09-30T09:13:44.213+01:002010-09-30T09:13:44.213+01:00Although I'm far less attracted than you are t...Although I'm far less attracted than you are to the 'extra scrutiny' idea, I can see your argument, Skipper. <br /><br />But my conclusion is 'it only takes one'. I find it impossible to believe though, that there aren't others we don't know about that would at least be mitigated if the trial was run again - fewer in the US than in other countries yes, but zero seems Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-25732277723209802582010-09-30T00:29:03.146+01:002010-09-30T00:29:03.146+01:00Given that Cameron Willingham is not imprisoned so...<i>Given that Cameron Willingham is not imprisoned somewhere but dead … does it change your views at all?</i><br /><br />How could it not. <br /><br />After all, my lack of objection to CP was based upon the premise that it is easy to do simple things without error; i.e., it is simple to select crimes impossible to have not occurred, impossible to have been committed by anyone but the Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-7554642535925795752010-09-29T13:08:59.997+01:002010-09-29T13:08:59.997+01:00I did of course mean Derek Bentley, btw. David Ben...I did of course mean Derek Bentley, btw. David Bentley is a rubbish English footballer.Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-56753114204976431622010-09-29T09:30:56.395+01:002010-09-29T09:30:56.395+01:00I must admit to some surprise that the Wikipedia a...<i>I must admit to some surprise that the Wikipedia article I referred to completely missed some of them.</i><br /><br />Ah, the pitfalls of argument by Wiki. But hell, we're bloggers, not investigative journalists.<br /><br />I'd be interested to know your thoughts in the light of these cases. ie. Given that Cameron Willingham is not imprisoned somewhere but dead (administered a lethal Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-84881526916701137762010-09-28T23:52:11.073+01:002010-09-28T23:52:11.073+01:00look 'em up ...
I did. Thanks for the referen...<i>look 'em up ...</i><br /><br />I did. Thanks for the references.<br /><br />I must admit to some surprise that the Wikipedia article I referred to completely missed some of them.<br /><br />Of the ones you list, Cameron Willingham's most directly supports your position, and undercuts mine.<br /><br />While I think it is easily possible to select a subset of perpetrators about whom Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-38263421992394005612010-09-28T22:32:19.104+01:002010-09-28T22:32:19.104+01:00Wayne Felker
Jesse Tafero
Cameron Willingham
Thoma...Wayne Felker<br />Jesse Tafero<br />Cameron Willingham<br />Thomas Griffin<br />David Bentley<br />Timothy Evans<br /><br />Look em up, Skipper. <br /><br />For an example where a wrongful execution led directly to the abolition of the death penalty, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Ryan" rel="nofollow">Ronald Ryan</a>.<br /><br />There's your null set, dude.Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-60787062259412645582010-09-28T21:37:28.430+01:002010-09-28T21:37:28.430+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-32982430184144882912010-09-28T21:34:49.348+01:002010-09-28T21:34:49.348+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-24236478565919840012010-09-28T21:33:49.119+01:002010-09-28T21:33:49.119+01:00Skipper - understand and am sympathetic to them.. ...<i>Skipper - understand and am sympathetic to them.. <br /><br />Yet you haven't mentioned any of them, only the one I've used. They include: offering the chance of redemption, eye for an eye = bad, etc etc.</i><br /><br />Okay, I'll be specific.<br /><br />The arguments for CP you mention are not in common currency here in the US. In fact, I have never heard either. The Wikipedia Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-33166060447344180302010-09-28T21:33:31.476+01:002010-09-28T21:33:31.476+01:00Your conclusions baffle me. Given the likelihood t...<i>Your conclusions baffle me. Given the likelihood that there is much less motivation for continuing to scrutinise after the convicted is actually dead, that number 120 is frigging terrifying.</i><br /><br />Since I got that number slightly wrong, let me clarify it. From the Wikipedia article I cited above:<br /><br /><i>Between 1976 and 2003, fewer than 2% of death row prisoners were Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-56750991994495735912010-09-28T07:38:56.734+01:002010-09-28T07:38:56.734+01:00Bit of a straw man, your straw man, Vern. I fully ...Bit of a straw man, your straw man, Vern. I fully agree that the US also employs parliamentary (or representative) democracy. It's a common arrangement. Looking through yr post, I wouldn't subscribe to any of the positions you ascribe to me.<br /><br />I suppose my point in the main post would have been clearer if I'd said 'mob justice' rather than 'mob rule'. <br /><Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-929511653530785372010-09-28T05:14:41.742+01:002010-09-28T05:14:41.742+01:00and that should have read 'should'and that should have read 'should'Vernnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-25612463515220966522010-09-28T05:13:02.889+01:002010-09-28T05:13:02.889+01:00... that shgould have read 'Obama put out'...... that shgould have read 'Obama put out'Vernnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-57536197016324357022010-09-28T05:11:30.251+01:002010-09-28T05:11:30.251+01:00"It's not perfect but it turns out it'..."It's not perfect but it turns out it's preferable to leaving everything up to a bloke who had a scimitar lobbed at him by some watery tart; or entirely by reference to the results of polls in The Sun."<br /><br /><br />Bit of a straw man as it doesn't even remotely describe the system in those parts of the states where the death penalty still exists; parliamentary democracyVernnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-2495584012348497082010-09-27T15:30:28.697+01:002010-09-27T15:30:28.697+01:00By the way: the list of incorrectly convicted (i.e...By the way: <i>the list of incorrectly convicted (i.e., wrong Who) executed murderers in the US in the last 50 years is nil; however, the number exonerated is far higher (roughly 120 over the same period).</i><br /><br />Your conclusions baffle me. Given the likelihood that there is much less motivation for continuing to scrutinise after the convicted is actually dead, that number 120 is friggingBrithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-83380701228054283742010-09-27T09:15:35.252+01:002010-09-27T09:15:35.252+01:00Skipper - understand and am sympathetic to them.....Skipper - <i> understand and am sympathetic to them.</i>. Yet you haven't mentioned any of them, only the one I've used. They include: offering the chance of redemption, eye for an eye = bad, etc etc.<br /><br /><i>So, let me get this straight. On one hand we should ignore societal attitudes towards CP, yet on the other take them into account?</i><br /><br />The point I'm making is Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-73893443904860856382010-09-27T04:08:47.103+01:002010-09-27T04:08:47.103+01:00Every execution leaves such a bad taste these days...<i>Every execution leaves such a bad taste these days …</i><br /><br />Obviously, as well it should. The original crime should leave a far worse taste, though.<br /><br /><i>I can see no reason why society should have to tolerate the continued existence of those who plan and carry out murder. <br /><br />Is that really true, or just rhetoric?</i><br /><br />True, but in a limited sense. I don’tHey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-48332435103179470962010-09-27T04:08:12.727+01:002010-09-27T04:08:12.727+01:00Diminished responsibility depends to a much bigger...<i>Diminished responsibility depends to a much bigger degree than I previously realised on the judge and lawyers involved. Also, societal attitudes to responsibility have transformed over 20 years - so your claim is factually wrong: it has become much harder, not easier, to prove unmitigated culpability.</i><br /><br />(Keeping in mind my self obscured point was in regard to Who, not Why …)<br />Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-31591833694025422172010-09-27T04:05:58.761+01:002010-09-27T04:05:58.761+01:00That [infallible conviction] is practically imposs...<i>That [infallible conviction] is practically impossible because any system is corruptible as well as fallible …</i><br /><br />That position carries less weight than you think it does.<br /><br />There are a range of possibilities with regard to every person and every criminal act.<br /><br />Presuming it is infallibly true the act actually occurred, for each person (including you and me) it isHey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-4197044084301175972010-09-26T22:07:44.968+01:002010-09-26T22:07:44.968+01:00Nope. Shorter Brit: Giving the people what they wa...Nope. Shorter Brit: Giving the people what they want ain't as easy as you'd think.Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-12337643643929795652010-09-26T22:01:02.408+01:002010-09-26T22:01:02.408+01:00Shorter Brit: A foolish consistency is the hobgob...Shorter Brit: A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.<br /><br />Gaw:<br /><br />Your gut feeling that capital punishment is wrong is sufficient to support your personal opinion, but obviously has no effect on my opinion. You can vote your way and I'll vote my way; and then Brit will step in and say that "voters have no say on this issue, I can't explain why and it&#Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16902329503560660425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-64912833520784335872010-09-26T21:39:02.100+01:002010-09-26T21:39:02.100+01:00Brit writes that all cap punishment does these day...Brit writes that <i>all cap punishment does these days is add to the sum of human misery, make everyone involved look bad...</i><br /><br />There's a sort of indecency about capital punishment that you either feel or you don't (within a person as well as between people - I sometimes feel conflicted).<br /><br />It's interesting that such a political writer as Orwell expressed his Gareth Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05058241057385364459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-20508546895134104292010-09-26T17:28:17.576+01:002010-09-26T17:28:17.576+01:00How do you square war (and in particular non-exist...<i>How do you square war (and in particular non-existential war not in response to an invasion) with your position on the death penalty?<br /></i><br /><br />Come on, David. For a pragmatic British conservative, any statement like that is a complete non-sequitor. In every case, the least worst option is the one to take.<br /><br />Btw, as I've been saying here, it's not just mistakes and Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-75188390150690325022010-09-26T16:51:52.165+01:002010-09-26T16:51:52.165+01:00Sorry about that. Blogger was acting up.Sorry about that. Blogger was acting up.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16902329503560660425noreply@blogger.com