tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post5684351751718782774..comments2023-11-05T08:01:10.010+00:00Comments on Think of England: Carbolic smoke ballsBrithttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-74624268030865420382009-06-28T00:47:03.784+01:002009-06-28T00:47:03.784+01:00Brit, we are the post-Judd Alliance. We've ne...Brit, we are the post-Judd Alliance. We've never met a dead horse we didn't feel constrained to beat. We have no human element.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-32330514446896023522009-06-27T14:32:40.929+01:002009-06-27T14:32:40.929+01:00Yeah the reason this debate isn't working, Pet...Yeah the reason this debate isn't working, Peter, is that you seem to be assuming that I'm using this case as a reductio ad absurdum position from which to argue that all alternative medicine should be banned. Which I'm not. It was the human element which annoyed me more than the (anti-) scientific one. <br /><br />Nice try though.Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-4885928333127224272009-06-27T11:25:49.572+01:002009-06-27T11:25:49.572+01:00There was a good Rumpole story where he was defend...There was a good Rumpole story where he was defending a palmist/fortune-teller on a fraud charge. The woman was uncanny in what she knew about her customers and the law smelt a rat. It turns out the law was right--she had a helper going through their purses and wallets while she was mesmerizing her cusomers, and he fed her the info through an earpiece. So she was convicted, but it was also Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-14633334328720593982009-06-26T21:09:15.602+01:002009-06-26T21:09:15.602+01:00SH:
Excellent point -- I had never thought of it ...SH:<br /><br />Excellent point -- I had never thought of it that way.Eric Guinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01996553818848130748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-24646857619708888532009-06-26T18:54:02.804+01:002009-06-26T18:54:02.804+01:00I must disagree with Mr. Cohen's estimate of t...I must disagree with Mr. Cohen's estimate of the value of psychics and palm readers. Successful ones tend to be very good at "cold reading" and perform primarily as lay psycho-analysists, dressing it up in quackery but not necessarily providing no value. It's likely to be cheaper than talking about problems on a psycho-analysists couch and not obviously delivering less value.<brSusan's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02862667802025231163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-23345755189652370732009-06-26T16:41:38.806+01:002009-06-26T16:41:38.806+01:00... and who are we to say that those people are mi...<i>... and who are we to say that those people are misspending their money.</i><br /><br />You, for one, just at the top of the same para.<br /><br />Perhaps your point would be more secure if you were to say "... and who are we to stop them spending their own money however they please."<br /><br />It is interesting that the law could be brought to bear on a fraudulent service station, Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-16482598984355954572009-06-26T09:14:11.733+01:002009-06-26T09:14:11.733+01:00Yeah, I don't think any of us are denying ther...Yeah, I don't think any of us are denying there's a <i>market</i> for quackery, David.Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-6567471534503314042009-06-26T04:57:00.759+01:002009-06-26T04:57:00.759+01:00Oh wait, I had a point. What was it?
That'...Oh wait, I had a point. What was it? <br /><br />That's right: people are not, by and large, rational empiricists.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16902329503560660425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-5733160965513232332009-06-26T04:56:06.508+01:002009-06-26T04:56:06.508+01:00Just the other day, I was driving from Northampton...Just the other day, I was driving from Northampton, home of Smith College, to Amherst, home of Amherst College, the University of Massachusetts and Hampshire College. About halfway between the two towns, I noticed a place of business offering psychic and spiritual readings, a line of business apparently <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&rlz=1C1CHMI_enUS305US312&um=1&ie=UTF-8Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16902329503560660425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-7034267902247071962009-06-25T23:21:19.488+01:002009-06-25T23:21:19.488+01:00Let me relate a personal experience.
When I was 1...Let me relate a personal experience.<br /><br />When I was 17, my then 15-yr old brother and I were driving across the US from California. In Kingman, AZ, we stopped to get gas. The gas station owner promptly sized us up, and came out to look under our car.<br /><br />Said we needed traction bars, because we were bottoming the suspension, and would ruin the differential. He would be happy to Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-4878060566642535672009-06-25T22:27:33.510+01:002009-06-25T22:27:33.510+01:00She was "engaged in magical thinking"; s...She was "engaged in magical thinking"; she was vulnerable and gullible. Potato, potahto. I get that, which is why I didn't say anything to her... and why we don't say anything generally.<br /><br />But we're not talking about some amulet providing positive chi-flow here, we're talking pregnancy. The placebo effect doesn't apply, so she won't actually get pregnantBrithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-34714078869865926572009-06-25T21:17:01.792+01:002009-06-25T21:17:01.792+01:00David, I think Skipper summed up my view well. It&...David, I think Skipper summed up my view well. It's not the sentimentality, desperation, stupidity, superstition, etc I object to (why would I, as I don't rule out my partaking in any of these?). It's the exploitation of these states that is objectionable.Gareth Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05058241057385364459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-82657664019833047662009-06-25T20:55:20.080+01:002009-06-25T20:55:20.080+01:00There is a deeper level of meaning that explains t...There is a deeper level of meaning that explains the persistence of religion, homeopathy, and various fertility amulets: Desperation and stupidity are a potent combination.<br /><br />This isn't about lack of science education, or scientific overreach. <br /><br />I'm with Brit on this. What the sharpkeeper did was nothing other than sheer victimization. He undoubtedly did nothing Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-26522755360386762772009-06-25T19:50:06.633+01:002009-06-25T19:50:06.633+01:00Gaw:
We're not saying, or at least I'm no...Gaw:<br /><br />We're not saying, or at least I'm not saying, that "she was complicit and sort of enjoyed being ripped off."<br /><br />I'm saying that her line of thinking wasn't, "In a double-blind peer reviewed study, a significantly higher number of women randomly assigned to wear silver bracelets got pregnant than a randomly assigned group of women assigned to Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16902329503560660425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-51525737369511635022009-06-25T19:06:39.671+01:002009-06-25T19:06:39.671+01:00I think Brit's bigger error is blaming a lack ...I think Brit's bigger error is blaming a lack of science education for this kind of thing.<br /><br />Successful and perpetual e-mail cons, for instance, are hardly limited to quack medicines. I find it much easier to understand getting taken by your shopkeeper than a former Ba'athist who needs your personal help to move TWENTY SIX MILLION, FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS out of Iraq.<br />Susan's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02862667802025231163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-45113512346331120802009-06-25T17:03:15.945+01:002009-06-25T17:03:15.945+01:00Peter, all of your 'problems' have already...Peter, all of your 'problems' have already been addressed. Medicine is highly regulated and governed by experts and rightly so.<br /><br />BTW why should we assume she was complicit and sort of enjoyed being ripped off, making it all ok? That's a pretty disreputable argument.Gareth Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05058241057385364459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-58064092846920349142009-06-25T16:21:22.287+01:002009-06-25T16:21:22.287+01:00Yes, but sometimes it is just plain old quackery, ...Yes, but sometimes it is just plain old quackery, clear as day. This guy was just picking stuff off the shelves and making up a narrative, I don't even think they were things that were advertised as specifically fertility products. Cetainly the silver bracelet wasn't. <br /><br />If the guy had an ounce of moral fibre he'd have told her to look up some adoption agencies, and ok if he Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-37002450005293721902009-06-25T16:08:00.536+01:002009-06-25T16:08:00.536+01:00next to the vaccine whackadoos, this is as nothing...<i>next to the vaccine whackadoos, this is as nothing.</i><br /><br />Indeed. I'd change my position completely and throw him in the Tower if he had said that she should buy his products and avoid sex.<br /><br />Gaw, the serious point under all this banter is the overreach and protean nature of scientific expertise, the difficulty of identifying who the authority to pronounce on it should Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-33968365547970201292009-06-25T15:36:59.578+01:002009-06-25T15:36:59.578+01:00First, next to the vaccine whackadoos, this is as ...First, next to the vaccine whackadoos, this is as nothing.<br /><br />Second, even giving Brit his due as the story-teller, and thus preferencing his interpretation, she almost certainly knew this was useless.<br /><br />Third, what's the NHS policy on fertility treatments? In the states, it's more or less available on demand in a lot of the states. I think most people woefully Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16902329503560660425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-54304267846194245712009-06-25T15:20:34.785+01:002009-06-25T15:20:34.785+01:00Peter: People can sell whatever is legal as long a...Peter: People can sell whatever is legal as long as they don't lie about what's in it or what it does for you. The application of some basic trading standards would be good.<br /><br />You can't compare the hawking of alternative remedies that don't work with the selling of crisps or lottery tickets. A more apt comparison would be with selling over-priced crisps on the promise Gareth Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05058241057385364459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-84605756209093784082009-06-25T15:10:29.076+01:002009-06-25T15:10:29.076+01:00You must be seriously argument-starved to be still...You must be seriously argument-starved to be still banging away at this one. He wasn't a doctor, he was a shopkeeper and he was lying to her in order to get her money. You've got to take my word for that because it's my story and therefore my interpretation of the protagonist's motive is valid and insightful and yours is just so much blind guesswork.Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-16455682794503664822009-06-25T14:54:59.825+01:002009-06-25T14:54:59.825+01:00Oh, sorry, I should have realized you were using t...Oh, sorry, I should have realized you were using the word in its everyday sense:<br /><br /><i>Fraud (n.)--A statement that Brit thinks is really stupid made to somebody he feels sorry for.</i>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-54683551938212020182009-06-25T14:34:36.434+01:002009-06-25T14:34:36.434+01:00Yes fraud, f-r-a-u-d, FRAUD DAMMIT!
Blud-dee lawy...Yes fraud, f-r-a-u-d, FRAUD DAMMIT!<br /><br />Blud-dee lawyers, sheesh.Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-35314404200225880502009-06-25T14:27:02.814+01:002009-06-25T14:27:02.814+01:00Fraud?. Fraud is an intentional mis-statement of ...<a href="http://www.fertility-facts.com/fertilitystore.htm" rel="nofollow">Fraud?</a>. Fraud is an intentional mis-statement of fact knowing it to be false or being reckless about whether it is or not. Have you ever met a doctor into homeopathy? Or a Chinese doctor/herbalist? They make Opus Dei look equivocal.<br /><br /><i>your level of profound dimness...</i><br /><br />You are a Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-88642872007190453282009-06-25T14:00:02.945+01:002009-06-25T14:00:02.945+01:00I've moved less than you think, because I was ...I've moved less than you think, because I was never quite as bright as you needed for the battles... and I doubt I'll ever attain your level of profound dimness, Peter.<br /><br />Come on, there are grey areas with things like 'health benefits' and 'energy' - and certainly pain relief, and science hasn't got very far at all with the relationship between mental and Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.com