tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post4141171539024866296..comments2023-11-05T08:01:10.010+00:00Comments on Think of England: Torture and the Non-Obvious AppleyardBrithttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-31897917379154018152009-11-12T22:04:23.142+00:002009-11-12T22:04:23.142+00:00Which London bombings - 7/7 or the IRA ones? I'...Which London bombings - 7/7 or the IRA ones? I'm arguing for the status quo, nothing more.Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-49085735468238396592009-11-12T19:55:42.951+00:002009-11-12T19:55:42.951+00:00Except that after 9/11 the hypothetical stopped be...Except that after 9/11 the hypothetical stopped being hypothetical.<br /><br />And after London,<br /><br />And after Madrid....<br /><br />There's more to this argument than righteous indignation based on abstractions.Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-91611855029751971762009-11-12T15:52:14.249+00:002009-11-12T15:52:14.249+00:00What, you want life to be easy?
Yeah yeah, the hy...What, you want life to be easy?<br /><br />Yeah yeah, the hypothetical clock is hypothetically ticking, I've seen 24.Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-5197359387038809162009-11-12T15:03:31.731+00:002009-11-12T15:03:31.731+00:00Right, so it's damned if you do, damned if you...Right, so it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.<br /><br />Meanwhile, the clock is ticking.Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-18623345053263854082009-11-12T13:13:51.232+00:002009-11-12T13:13:51.232+00:00Then I might torture him, or I might not. Likewise...Then I might torture him, or I might not. Likewise I might murder someone or steal something in the right hypothetical circumstances. So what? You're stating the bleedin' obvious. The point is you don't draw up legislation sanctioning torture, murder and theft for every extreme hypothetical; you ban and mitigate in individual cases.Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-77852885418502932392009-11-11T16:31:24.306+00:002009-11-11T16:31:24.306+00:00All of the above sounds pretty abstract to me.
Wh...All of the above sounds pretty abstract to me.<br /><br />What if one were to phrase the question as follows:<br /><br />"If you had someone in custody who would be ecsatatic to kill himself in order to kill or maim or terrorize another, or 10 others or hundreds or thousands of others, or who is allied with an organization that preaches and encourages such a worldview; and what if you Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-59692535814265650982009-04-28T18:49:00.000+01:002009-04-28T18:49:00.000+01:00Gaw:
But seriously, where are you coming from?Fro...Gaw:<br /><br /><I>But seriously, where are you coming from?</I>From precisely here: Bryan's statement about torture, far from being an exercise in delphian non-obviousness is, excluding the contradictory bits, simply banal.<br /><br />Your remedial description of torture does nothing to relieve that problem.<br /><br />Of course torture is wrong; no one has ever said otherwise. It is not a Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-89809544778307075252009-04-28T16:52:00.000+01:002009-04-28T16:52:00.000+01:00I don't mean "forgiveness" to be a synonym for imm...I don't mean "forgiveness" to be a synonym for immunity. We could in theory both prosecute and forgive. Rather, I mean forgiveness is a more or less Christian sense: that we stay conscious of the fact that any of us might have done the same.<br /><br />But in the real world, I can't think of a situation in which the question arises. When, in our legalistic regime are we going to conclude thatDavidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16902329503560660425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-85994126069525227002009-04-28T16:42:00.000+01:002009-04-28T16:42:00.000+01:00But David, surely that is a problem. If the U.S. ...But David, surely that is a problem. If the U.S. or anyone else is going to reserve the right to forgive torture (or even define it) to domestic constituencies, they shouldn't be signing international treaties binding themselves, no?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-24689631473334812009-04-28T16:02:00.000+01:002009-04-28T16:02:00.000+01:00By whom? Since I don't think that there was tortu...By whom? Since I don't think that there was torture done here, I don't think that anyone needs forgiveness. But if officially sanctioned torture had been done, forgiveness would have to come from the people of the United States, in whose name it was done.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16902329503560660425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-16211708021072389662009-04-28T15:53:00.000+01:002009-04-28T15:53:00.000+01:00Torture is always wrong. But not always unforgivab...<I>Torture is always wrong. But not always unforgivable</I>Unforgivable by whom? Or perhaps I should say by Whom?<br /><br />I don't think recognizing mitigating circumstances that go to punishment or even the decision to prosecute is the same as forgiving.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-51379700041494674322009-04-28T14:18:00.000+01:002009-04-28T14:18:00.000+01:00Yes. Torture is always wrong.
But not always unf...Yes. Torture is always wrong.<br /><br />But not always unforgivable. This is a nice illustration of the Fundamental Attribution Error, which is the tendency of people in the west to attribute the observed actions of others solely to their dispositions, while ignoring the role played by the situation. If we had been in the same situation, we would likely have done the same things. Anyone who Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16902329503560660425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-67878073962635927252009-04-28T13:50:00.000+01:002009-04-28T13:50:00.000+01:00So in conclusion, David, torture is always wrong.So in conclusion, David, torture is always wrong.Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-88852619998096019332009-04-28T13:35:00.000+01:002009-04-28T13:35:00.000+01:00Brit: Actually, I think that this is a subject on...Brit: Actually, I think that this is a subject on which the west is just too tough on itself. We ask ourselves odd hypotheticals about whether we'd shoot a terrorist in the knee to stop the countdown on the big nuclear weapon in the middle of Manhattan. We worry about whether a procedure for which tens of thousands of people have volunteered is torture if done involuntarily. We have lawyers Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16902329503560660425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-30442599950948041542009-04-28T11:52:00.000+01:002009-04-28T11:52:00.000+01:00If you deal in absolutes in the case of torture th...If you deal in absolutes in the case of torture then if not using it leads to one or thousands of deaths and torture has been banished by the liberal will, how do these deaths fit into the liberal conscience ? A case maybe of the will of the liberal argument winning out at the expense of the lives of others.<br /><A HREF="http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,621450,00.html" REL="maltyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02936465848907794425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-24720098749839491052009-04-28T09:09:00.000+01:002009-04-28T09:09:00.000+01:00Skipper - the War comparison just doesn't work. Wa...Skipper - the War comparison just doesn't work. Wars come about for too many reasons outside the reach of policy. You may as well say Famine or Disease. 'Genocide' would be better as torture's 'bigger brother'. In which case, yes, genocide is wrong, murder is wrong, torture is wrong. And then we're just back to the original question of deduction from first principles versus empiricism and Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-84061662062106123702009-04-28T08:54:00.000+01:002009-04-28T08:54:00.000+01:00Aah! Look, Skipper, you're right, OK? I give in. B...Aah! Look, Skipper, you're right, OK? I give in. But whatever you do just please, please stop posting these really long comments. I just can't take it any more.<br /><br />And they say torture doesn't work...<br /><br />But seriously, where are you coming from?<br /><br />"I am insisting on the impossibility of approaching an intelligent assessment with morally lofty but essentially empty Gareth Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05058241057385364459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-30213478307620773272009-04-28T03:28:00.000+01:002009-04-28T03:28:00.000+01:00First off, people with an official secrets act and...First off, people with an official secrets act and no guarantee against prior restraint should step a little softly around pronouncing that "we would never do such a thing, Old Chap." For better or worse, the US government is a sieve when it comes to official secrets, so we generally learn the worst sooner rather than later. It seems highly unlikely to me that the British government is as spot Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16902329503560660425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-4790175300830409462009-04-27T22:34:00.000+01:002009-04-27T22:34:00.000+01:00Brit:
Last things first.
... "Mr Appleyard" and...Brit:<br /><br />Last things first.<br /><br /><I> ... "Mr Appleyard" and "piffle" thing is laid on a bit thick.</I>Since Bryan is famous, and I am not, using his first name felt like invoking an unwarranted degree of familiarity.<br /><br />Regarding "piffle", you are absolutely correct. It <I>was</I> over the top; I could have made my point just as well without using a term that was undeservedHey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-67248317410217233582009-04-27T20:54:00.000+01:002009-04-27T20:54:00.000+01:00Skipper -
I don't really think I can say much wi...Skipper - <br /><br />I don't really think I can say much without repeating chunks of the original post. But I suppose a few points arising from your comment:<br /><br />1) I don't see how War is torture's 'older brother'. Policy and law don't apply in the same way. Torture is more like murder. Murder is always wrong in law, but sometimes there is mitigation. As Peter above says - you don't need Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-49457143415967286812009-04-27T20:04:00.000+01:002009-04-27T20:04:00.000+01:00Brit:
Your post was very thoughtful; I hope this ...Brit:<br /><br />Your post was very thoughtful; I hope this response is not overlong.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />I am not saying Mr. Appelyard's argument is wrong, I am saying his position is so empty that it does not even qualify as an argument. Rather, it is a pose stiffened by a generous dollop of indignation. He leaves the central point of contention untouched: without stopping to Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-67912498950955282212009-04-27T19:04:00.000+01:002009-04-27T19:04:00.000+01:00Sorry to bother malty, ive spent 16 hours in A&...Sorry to bother malty, ive spent 16 hours in A&E over the weekend with a broken wrist, that and being told that conservatism that I did not consider to be an ism, is sort of an ism, when I thought it was akin to pragmatism?<br /><br />....as well as probably having to cancel a trip to Canada next week, you can gather its not been a good 48 hours...but the drugs are good, I have to say.Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04362169593902131947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-44132355995854429572009-04-27T14:40:00.000+01:002009-04-27T14:40:00.000+01:00Brit, your imminent rediscovery of the land of chi...Brit, your imminent rediscovery of the land of childhood inspired me to post something on my blog about the Ladybird fairy stories. It's hard hitting stuff, obviously.Gareth Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05058241057385364459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-85717056014426603482009-04-27T13:37:00.000+01:002009-04-27T13:37:00.000+01:00Good points, Gaw and Peter, btw.Good points, Gaw and Peter, btw.Brithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390560583798960760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9501938.post-57490634993760643052009-04-27T10:06:00.000+01:002009-04-27T10:06:00.000+01:00Enjoy rediscovering (in my case it was mostly disc...Enjoy rediscovering (in my case it was mostly discovering) those children's books Brit - beats philosophy any day...Nigehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13314891387515045404noreply@blogger.com